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Catherine Austin Fitts [00:00:00] The U.S. Economy and financial system is the leader globally in laundering dirty money. I said to this wonderful group, let's pretend there's a big red button up here on the lectern and if you push that button, you can stop all hard narcotics trafficking tomorrow. Who here will push the button? And out of a hundred people dedicated to evolving our society spiritually, guess how many would push the buttons?

Tucker [00:00:21] I don't know. You suggested the control grid is in part designed to manage the population.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:00:27] So if you want to move people to a much lower economic footprint, having complete control is obviously very convenient.

Tucker [00:00:34] As the majority is about to get a lot poorer.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:00:36] So the question is, where's all this money going? And one of the things I've looked at is the underground base and city infrastructure and transportation system that's been built.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:00:47] I think if you're worried about a near extinction event.

Tucker [00:01:12] So thank you for doing this. You get, I know you've worked on this for years, but you get the sense if you're just a sort of aware person that there is a concerted attempt by governments around the world to digitize commerce and to digitized currency and to basically control people through money. Correct. That's correct. Okay, so that was my first question. Is this happening? Am I imagining it?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:01:37] It's absolutely happening and what's important to understand, it's been happening for a long time. In other words, this is like an invisible corral that they've been building around you for a long, long time because the, you know, how do a few sneak up on the many? Well, you have to do it very quietly invisibly before you throw the trap. So essentially what they're building because it's converting a currency system into a control system. So it's really the end of currency. And what they're doing is they've been building the different digital pieces. And when it integrates and comes together, then you literally have a digital concentration camp. It's complete and utter control.

Tucker [00:02:21] Otherwise known as the world.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:02:23] It's, here's the thing to understand. We, you and I grew up in a world where there was mass media, where you were pitching stories, you know, so you had 57 varieties of ice cream and you're pitching them to 57 different niches, but you're still pitching to mass audiences. What we're talking about is a system where you can surveil, control and influence one person at a time. And with AI and software, each person can have their custom surveillance influence, nudging, and control system.

Tucker [00:02:56] And punishment.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:02:57] Enforcement.

Tucker [00:02:58] Because ultimately, if you control money, you can starve people to death. You can kill them.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:03:03] Right. So go back and think of the pandemic. So if I say you can't go more than a mile from your home and I say, you can, you have to be mandated a pharmaceutical, then if you don't take the pharmaceutical, I can turn off your money. If you go more that a mile away from your house, your money and your credit cards won't work. So, you know, whatever rules I lay down, there's a wonderful, wonderful example. The head of the... Bank of International Settlements is the central bank of central banks, and it's been running the process to implement basically an all digital monetary system, and they have innovation hubs all over the world. They've been running this process for a long time. And in 2020, when the pandemic started, or it was October 2020, so the pandemic was underway, the And in one minute, first time in my life I ever saw a central banker tell the truth, I fell off my chair. And he said, you know, the beauty of this is we can set the rules on how your money works and we have the technology to enforce them. And what he was saying is literally from one place in, you know, anywhere in the world where the technology exists. You can track each person individually, you can set a complex list of rules, like legislation, regulation, and administrative policy, and you can enforce them all with the technology, with AI and software. So, have you ever seen, there's a wonderful movie called The Lives of Others about the German Stasi and surveillance. It's about a group of artists and sort of creative, talented people who are under surveillance by the German stasi. And you see what it's like to be under surveillance for 24-7. Think of each one of us. We're all under surveillance, not just by governments, but by corporations who are trying to do something. And it may not be anything nefarious. So 80 different companies are trying to sell you something, or 80 different companies are try to get your data for some reason. And so, they have AI and software bots that track you and follow you and learn from you and try and influence what you do because they're trying to extract some kind of value from you. And literally, think of being attacked by a swarm of bees. We're surrounded now by a swarm of AI software bots all trying to learn from us, extract something from us or get us to do something. Now, when you go to an all digital system, then there's no escape and then they can start literally to enforce rules. They do now.

Tucker [00:05:56] So what are the manifestations of this that maybe we're not paying attention to or don't perceive for what they are?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:06:03] So look at what they did to the Canadian truckers. We don't like what you're doing. We cut off your money and we cut off your friend's money. And if people help you, we cut off their money too. So I've had, I've known so many different people around the country who've been debanked. We just got legislation passed in Tennessee that a bank over a certain size couldn't debank someone for political or religious reasons. You know, and you're one of the things that's happened.

Tucker [00:06:28] There's no such federal law.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:06:30] Not that I know of, but I haven't looked. I've been working with the states because ultimately the one power currently under the constitution in the United States that can stop this, the power's not delegated to the federal government by the states, are reserved to the states. In other words, the states are technically more powerful than the federal Government. And under the Constitution, they have the power to override the federal government on many different issues, including healthcare. And so one of the tensions we see in America is more and more there is a debate between the feds and the states about who has what power. So we've seen a lot of the conservative AGs and treasurers pushing back in a wonderful way, in a marvelous way. The challenge they have is this. And this was said to me by a senator in Northern Ohio. Northern Ohio has one of the best groups of sort of freedom-fighting legislators in the country. And as you probably know, because you know, Monta, it's very beautiful. And, um...

Tucker [00:07:36] You sure about Montana?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:07:37] Uh, Idaho.

Tucker [00:07:38] I, I don't, okay.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:07:39] So, so, but it's right, you know, it's right next to Montana. So one of the Idaho senators said to me, he said, my problem, every time I fight to implement the constitution. What I learned is every year we send a dollar to Washington and every year Washington sends back a dollar and 19 cents. And when I say I wanna implement the constitution, my constituents say to me, I'd rather have the 19 cents so what we've been watching literally since World War II is the federal government and a very, you know, largesse both monetary and fiscal policy buying people out of the constitution. And buying the whole federal, I mean, the federal government is right now so operating so far outside the laws, you know how unbelievable it is. So that's the challenge before us. If we want to be free, you now, we're going to have to decide we're not going to let ourselves be, you it's like being sort of walked into the slaughterhouse. We're not going to walk into the slaughterhouse.

Tucker [00:08:43] But you don't even, I guess what bothers me about it, there's something wonderfully straightforward, horrifying, but wonderfully straightforward about just a conventional invasion where people show up with guns and tell you what to do, because at least you know who the enemy is, but there's some thing very scary in an insidious way about being lulled into slavery.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:09:03] Right, and the thing to understand about the lulling is the marketing plan works one person at a time. In other words, you I buy with money, your friend I buy by knocking them off, or your other friend I get a control file on. So there are thousands of different ways of nudging, buying carrots and sticks to get everybody into the control, into the trap. What is so insidious about this is much of the marketing plan is invisible, and it really is crafted one by one.

Tucker [00:09:40] The odds seem overwhelming against the average person in a system that you just described. So how far are we from not being able to exercise constitutional freedoms?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:09:52] So, I don't know how many years they're clearly pushing to have this done by 2030. And, you know, what I do have to say is if you look at what it takes to stop it, I believe they're going to fail. Now, what i don't underestimate is how much damage they could do and the failure may not come in time to save America.

Tucker [00:10:15] If we could just stop and define terms, who's they?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:10:18] Uh, I, the central bankers, right. So w we have a democratic Republic or we have a Republican use this democratic process. What happened in 1913 is the bankers took control of monetary policy. What they're trying to do now is take control of fiscal policy. Once they get control of physical policy, it's going to be much harder to reverse it.

Tucker [00:10:42] Can you, I'm gonna ask a series of really dumb questions. I hope you'll indulge me. What's the difference?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:10:48] Taxation without representation.

Tucker [00:10:50] But between fiscal and monetary policy.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:10:51] Okay, monetary policy is I control the process by which currency is issued, including through credit. So I generally govern and control credit issuance. And from that the currency, the creation and management of the currency. Fiscal policy is when I control taxes and the borrowing of the U.S. Government. Now, because the central bank basically... Operates the borrowing, you know, it's the borrowing shared. But this comes down as the, you know this is the Boston Tea Party moment. Can they tax without representation? So I'll give you a little story. During the Biden administration, Biden nominated somebody for control of currency who was ultimately not approved. The Republicans in the Senate killed Ah, the nomination. Before she was nominated, three weeks before, she wrote an article in the Vanderbilt Law Review that said the great thing about central bank digital currency, in other words an all digital currency system, is you have the perfect tool to deal with inflation if inflation gets out of hand, you just freeze everybody's bank accounts.

Tucker [00:12:01] Nice.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:12:04] Right, right, right. It's, it's, um...

Tucker [00:12:10] Inflation is a creation of monetary, it's the effect of monetary policy. It's like something that somebody did to you.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:12:17] Well, there are two things that cause inflation. So one is monetary policy, managing monetary policy in a way that creates and monetary inflation. But you also have, and we're going through it now, what I call de-globalization, where you have real increases in the cost of goods. So my cost of good are going up and it's not because they're issuing, too much currency relative to growth, it's because we are reversing globalization. Globalization created a whole lot of lower costs for a variety of reasons.

Tucker [00:12:51] So if you had severing of supply chains, for example, that would cause inflation because it just cost more to get the materials and the goods

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:12:58] Right, and it's not just higher prices, it's some products, a lot of products stop being economic and just go away. So when you hiccup supply chains, especially if you do it by shock and all, which is what we're watching now, it wrecks havoc. So think of it like a flotilla of ships that need to turn. And if the aircraft carrier doesn't let everybody know they're turning. Then the boats aren't ready to turn and you have boats smashing into each other.

Tucker [00:13:30] You sink a lot of ships too.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:13:31] You sink a lot of ships.

Tucker [00:13:34] Um, so leaving aside whether that was wise or not, that's what we're doing. Right. Um, So you get inflation out of that. Of course, you're absolutely right. If oil prices go up, you get an inflation.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:13:43] Right. And that de-globalization started in the financial crisis. So it's accelerating now but it's not that we just started it.

Tucker [00:13:52] How did it start during in 2008?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:13:57] Because for several reasons, but one is we were trying to exercise more and more control through the dollar system, and we've always exercised a lot of power and control and extracted a subsidy from the dollar's system. But you have more and people trying to get out of the system. And the financial crisis, first the Asian crisis in 97 was a real wake up to Asia. You know, you need to create more resiliency. But more and more things happened, and then in 2008, it started to accelerate with the creation of the, as the bricks started to organize and work to sort of pull out of the dump.

Tucker [00:14:37] So the idea was you've got a world economy based on the dollar, the people who issue and administer the dollar are not running things responsibly, therefore we need a separate safe haven.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:14:49] The people running the dollar system want a unipolar model. The U.S. Wants a unapolar model, and we don't want to be part of a unepolar model because we don't want, if you look at the level of subsidy they're extracting, we don't want that level of of subsidy extracted. And if you looked at some of the rules and regulations, we didn't want be a part of it. So we in India, I don't know if you ever saw one of the greatest explanations of globalization ever given. Sir James Goldsmith came to the United States in 1994 and he did an interview with Charlie Rose and he described why we should never approve the Uruguay Round of Gat and institute the WTO. To this day, he nailed it perfectly.

Tucker [00:15:36] If you could summarize his argument, what would it be?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:15:39] He said, we are going to hollow out the middle class in the West and we are going to devastate our culture.

Tucker [00:15:50] In a culture.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:15:51] Yes, our culture, we're going to devastate our culture and we're going to devestate the quality of the food supply. He said that? Yes. So now those are my words of way of saying it. You should watch it. And I think to this day, I think it's the best description. And, and if you read my online book and you listen to Sir James Goldsmith, what they both describe is the fact we knew, we knew what we were. In other words, the leadership knew. That this would destroy and devastate the West. So why'd they do it? That's the $64,000 question. Well, they hate the West. Defenders of the West! I think one of the reasons they did it is I think they wanted to create the capacity and centralize the capital they needed to go into space, and I think they knew that they would need every hundred or so years, the central bankers do a reset, and, I think, they knew they were coming into a reset. And, and they felt with this technology that they, you know, if they didn't globalize someone else would and, and, they wanted to control the process.

Tucker [00:17:04] They needed the money to go into space?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:17:07] The capital.

Tucker [00:17:09] Well, I don't even know what that means.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:17:10] So I think they wanted to build the capacity to become a multi-planetary civilization.

Tucker [00:17:20] Man, I was caught up in such minutia in 1994. I never heard anybody say that. I had no idea that was happening.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:17:27] So I became, I didn't become convinced of that in 1994. I became convinced. Were you still working for the federal government in 94? Uh, my company was the lead financial advisor for the department of housing and urban development. And I was trying to clean up the mortgage corruption. And what I ran smack into is that they were clearly and intentionally setting up the infrastructure to dramatically increase mortgage fraud intentionally. Mortgage fraud is a public-private partnership between the New York Fed member banks and the federal government. So the Treasury and the Fed were clearly engineering a massive new mortgage bubble. And essentially, I was doing a series of things. And that mortgage bubble was gonna centralize capital. And I was working on a whole plan coming out of the Bush administration. We were taking all our profits and investing. In building a software infrastructure that would help communities decentralize political and economic power, but in a way that would create new great wealth. And one of the projects we had was we were working with, I had a subsidiary that had a project working with the top pension fund leaders in the country. And essentially our job was to figure out how the pension funds could invest so that they could handle this baby boomer demographic going through the pension and retirement system. And how we could do it, how they could invest their money, because they're operating at such a size, that it would be good for America. How do you build a stronger America in a way that helps the baby boomers live in retirement? And I made a presentation in the spring of 1997. To, we were at a big money management firm outside of Pennsylvania, and one of the board members was a money manager who worked with a lot of the pension funds. And so we had all these top corporate and state pension fund leaders, and I made a presentation. We had done a simulation of re-engineering the Philadelphia economy to achieve this. And the top pension fund leader looked at me and he said... Oh my God, you know, this is very similar to what we tried long ago and it didn't work. And I said, you didn't have the internet, you didn't have the tools to get the average person's learning metabolism high enough, you know, on an economic basis to do that. We had built a data servicing company in low income communities and we were able to show how easily we could get the labor force or people on welfare, off of welfare and like making lots of money and being very productive at high speed. And he looked at me and he said, you don't understand, it's too late. I said, what do you mean it's to late? He said, they've given up on the country. They're moving all the money out starting in the fall. He said you've got to get to Nick Brady. Nick had been my, I had been a partner at Dylan Reed and Nick had the chairman of Dylan Reed before he became Secretary of Treasury. And at that point, Nick is out, but you know, sort of involved. Anyway, he said you you've gotta get to Nick and let him know it's not hopeless. This can all be turned around. And um And I thought he meant we, the pension funds, have been instructed to reinvest equity and reallocate our equity into the emerging markets, which made sense, because they had a much higher growth rate. What I didn't realize then was, and I realized shortly thereafter, in October of 1997, that's the beginning of the 1998 fiscal year, huge, enormous amounts of money started disappearing from the U.S. Government. And literally by the time of 9-11, there was 4.1 trillion missing from DOD and HUD. And if you remember the day before 9-Eleven, Donald Rumsfeld stood up and basically said, he did a press conference and he said, there's 2.3 trillion in undocumented adjustments last year at DOD, and we're missing money, and it's worse than terrorism. And then of course, I was working with a reporter on a huge story that would have published that Friday after 9-11 about the missing money. We'd been working on it for over a year and she'd done nine stories. I'd helped her do nine stories because we were trying to get the general accounting office. That now they call it the General Accountability Office, but we were trying to get both Congress and the GAO to do something about it and to try and stop it. And anyway, as you know.

Tucker [00:22:10] Yeah, priorities changed, for reasons that we still don't understand. Oh, I understand. Well, I don't think the average person, the average person I think sort of thinks, well, maybe there were 19 guys from Saudi or something.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:22:25] I call the Patriot Act the control and concentration of cash flow act because one of the things that happened after 9-11, if you look at the history of the black budget, the sort of secret financing that the government uses for secret and classified projects, that pot of money had grown and grown and it had become very dysfunctional to try and get that money. Mortgage fraud to, I believe was one of the biggest sources. And that's why. What I was doing sort of went into the heart of the problem, but. The Patriot Act and that whole process was very successful at moving a lot more money onto the budget. In other words, it made it much easier to get enormous amounts of money for the national security state as a result of what happened. Now, whenever you do an operation like this, you stack functions, so it's only one of many goals, but it was very successfully.

Tucker [00:23:24] It all went right over my head. I thought it was all about Muhammad Adha. I had no idea. I know you're laughing.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:23:31] I want to tell you my church story.

Tucker [00:23:32] Wait, hold on, there's so many threats here. Yeah, there is a lot of threats. Yeah, There's a lot threats. I just want to, I don't want to let it continue to hang in the air of this question of space. You sort of threw that out parenthetically, but like I've never heard that before. So you believe going back 30 years that people in the U.S. Government and in the finance world wanted money for

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:23:53] Yeah, it wasn't U.S. Government, it was the central banking. If you look at the group of people who meet through the BIS, the B.I.S is the Bank of International Settlements and it's the central bank of central bank.

Tucker [00:24:06] Where is that located?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:24:07] It's in Basel, Switzerland, and it has 63 of the most powerful central banks as its members and the New York Fed and the Fed are both shareholders. They became shareholders in 1994.

Tucker [00:24:21] In one sentence, what's the purpose of the Bank of International Sentiments?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:24:24] Okay, so there are two things you need to know about the Bank of International Settlement.

Tucker [00:24:27] I'm not sure my brain's big enough for this, but keep going.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:24:31] It has sovereign immunity.

Tucker [00:24:34] What does that mean?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:24:35] It's above the law.

Tucker [00:24:37] It's its own country.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:24:37] Right. It's its own country. It has its own police force. And essentially, other than one of its staff being in a car accident or minor things, no one has the legal authority to move against it. Okay, and a sovereign immunity, that's number one. Number two, it can move money and hold it on its balance sheet and manage money secretly. So if I wanna, and I'm grossly oversimplifying, if I want to steal 21 trillion from the US government and park it on the balance sheet of the BIS, it can it move it anywhere in the world and it can keep it on it's balance sheet secretly.

Tucker [00:25:19] Why would there be an organization like it but first of all, where does its power click who empowered it to have sovereign immunity in the

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:25:26] It was created after World War I and sort of collected its powers and got going in the 30s. And it was created in theory to manage the reparations of the German government. But if you read the real history, it was because the Bank of England and the central bankers wanted an entity that had sovereign immunity. They wanted to be able to move money secretly. So for example, if you look at what happened during World War II and all the money that moving back and forth. Between the Germans and Americans. You know, Dulles was over in Switzerland helping to match all these transfers back and forth. So there's a wonderful book called The Tower of Basel by a wonderful Hungarian journalist where he documents and describes the whole history of the Bank of International Settlements. And if you want to understand power in this world, understanding how the Bank of International settlements and the plumbing of the central banking system works is very, very important.

Tucker [00:26:26] I've always been worried that if I knew more that I would become mentally ill.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:26:32] I just have to say that reality is sort of the door that you open to find real solutions. So there are real solutions, and the biggest obstacle to implementing them is nobody wants to face it. So I used to have a pastor who would say...

Tucker [00:26:49] Nobody wants to face the truth of how things actually work.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:26:52] And I understand that because the hardest thing I ever had to do, Tucker, was look in the mirror and say, I'm the Patsy. I was the assistant secretary of housing. I didn't know and I went along and I didn't t face this. I should have seen this faster. I should've said, I am the Potsy. And sometimes it's harder than facing death to admit that you've been part of a big Why and you've been

Tucker [00:27:19] As someone who advocated for the Iraq war on television, I've lived this to some extent. To some extent.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:27:23] Oh, no. Yes, I did. Well, you know, part of facing this is you have to forgive yourself. You really have to. But I used to have a pastor who would say, if we can face it, God can fix it. Because you have understand, we can't fix it, there are many, many things we can do to change the course. And I believe ultimately freedom can prevail. And there's many things that we can do to help that happen. But ultimately, this is a spiritual war. And you have to call on God, you have call on the divine, and that's where the battle is ultimately going to be decided. And that means, literally, I believe this is true, the divine intelligence cannot go to work unless we're willing to face it. We have to look at it, we have to pray, we ask for help, and we have deal with And the solutions, the real solutions will be cultural. They'll be millions of people acting in their own life refusing to be controlled, you know, individually.

Tucker [00:28:26] So very, very wise what you just said. I think it's true. And thank you for saying that. I want to just go one more time to the space question. So you said that. People with power at the central banks decided that we need to sort of colonize space or move towards space. Did that happen?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:28:49] So here's what happened and we have two wrap-ups and I think I sent them to you. One is we published in 2015 called Space Here We Go and it's got a picture of a businessman, you know, taking off in a spaceship. And then we, in 2017, after a couple of the big investment banks wrote big things about space investment, we wrote one called The Space-Based Economy. And And then we track space on Salir report. So I would refer you to that. But I think... You know, first of all, you've seen a lot of capital centralized into a few billionaires who then reinvest that money in space. So Musk, Bezos, you know, so clearly there's a centralization of capital and a reinvestment.

Tucker [00:29:41] So the idea of space is what, I mean, just the biggest possible picture. Why would you be interested in space? I say this as someone who's not.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:29:49] Right. So, let me give you a couple reasons why. First of all, you're looking for, the miners are looking for a variety of different resources. So there are practical reasons if you can get the cost down that you would want to do asteroid mining. The big one, the big economic one is control is most easily implemented by satellites. So you want to put up a whole ring of satellites. That combined with telecommunications can basically help run the control grid. And not just the control in the West, the control grade. If you're gonna shift huge amounts of money globally, how are you going to track and enforce that your money is being properly invested? Well, you need a control grid globally. So I think that's part of it. The last thing and I don't know the answer to this is I think there is real concerned about geophysical risks. And one way to deal with that is to make sure we don't bet the ranch on one planet.

Tucker [00:30:51] So to that, if we could just linger on that. Thank you for that. That all makes sense. If we just linger in one question, so geophysical risks. So we've been lectured for, I don't know, 30 years now about climate change. Climate change is obviously an ongoing feature of life on this planet.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:31:07] It's just enough.

Tucker [00:31:10] So, of course, it's not, but I think we, you know, people have figured that out. Yeah. Um, but, but that doesn't mean that smart, highly informed people aren't worried about geophysical risks. They are, and I know some of them. So what do you think those risks are that, that honest, smart people who are interested in self preservation and thriving, like what are the risks they're worried about?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:31:34] So I think, I think the first is a solar minimum where you get big drops in the economy and the agriculture and you can't feed the population.

Tucker [00:31:45] So because there are changes in climate because of the distance of the earth from the sun, right and that changes

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:31:50] Right, so we know throughout history we go through periods of solar minima.

Tucker [00:31:54] Solar Minimum is the name.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:31:55] I think it's called Solar Minimum, I'm not an expert in any of this, so...

Tucker [00:32:00] So they are worried about climate change but they don't think it's coming from your suburban.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:32:04] Right. It's not coming from human behavior. Now there are environmental problems coming from human behaviors. For sure. That's for sure. Right. So that's one.

Tucker [00:32:15] And do you think that risk is real?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:32:17] I don't know.

Tucker [00:32:19] For the record, I have one friend who's very well-informed who has convinced me that that is real, that they're very concerned about water.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:32:28] If you look at the history of solar minimums and you look at what it does to, there was a Russian, I can't remember if he was an economist or science that did a lot of research on the stock market and solar activity. You know, and if you're the central bankers and you're in charge of managing the financial system. That reality would make me very nervous. So I think there's something there worth understanding. The other thing is, it appears to me, if you go back through history, every 10,000, 12,000 years we have some kind of huge disaster.

Tucker [00:33:08] An extinction event.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:33:09] Extinction, a near extinction event. So I don't know if you've ever read the science fiction book Three-Body Problem. No. It's fascinating. It is one of the top Chinese science fiction and it's about

Tucker [00:33:23] I've read no Chinese science fiction. I'm feeling very ignorant this morning. No, no, no. Because I...

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:33:30] No, no, no. Because here's the thing. I'm just trying to figure out what in the world's going on.

Tucker [00:33:34] Amen. We'll start in the same place.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:33:36] And so that always, as you know, that always leads you to the most. It does, right. So in one, I think the thing that got me to read Three Body Problem was Obama made some cryptic comment about people ought to read this book. It was like, hint, hint. Here are the problems I'm dealing with. And the three-body problem is about... Other bodies that come into the solar system and it's impossible to predict their trajectory and then when they do, they create this catastrophic flooding and earthquakes and all this other stuff. Anyway, but I think that there, whether it's a pole shift, magnetic pole shift is one of the theories of what causes these events, but there is a history of near extinction events and One of the things that I've looked at because I'm trying to figure out, you know, between fiscal 1998 and fiscal 2015, there were 21 trillion of undocumented adjustments in the U.S. Government. If you go to our website, missingmoney.soleil.com, we have years and years of documentation, including the government financials that show this. And so the question is, where is all money going and one of the things I've looked at in the process of looking at where all this money is going is the underground base and city infrastructure and transportation system that's been built.

Tucker [00:35:06] I'm sorry

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:35:07] So we have built an extraordinary number of underground bases and supposedly transportation systems. Some of these are documented as part of the national security infrastructure. I think there are many more. In the United States? In the United States and all over the world. But from 2021 to 2023, I took one of the smartest subscribers in the Salir Report Network. And he and I spent two years collecting all the data and all the allegations on underground basis. And then we systematically went through and tried to estimate our guess, this is totally a guess, of how many underground bases both underground in the United States but also underground under the ocean around the United States. And our estimate was 170, with the transportation network connecting them.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:36:15] If you thought you were going to get a near extinction event, so to me there are two purposes. You have so many activities going on that you need to keep secret, that you're basically building the capacity to, for example, if you're doing a secret space program, you need to platform it from things that can't be seen. But I think if you are worried about a near-extinction event... That's.

Tucker [00:36:42] So I know nothing about this. My only window into it, I knew a contractor who worked on one in Washington, in the city of Washington, D.C. And I remember him telling me about a power box, like a transformer box on Constitution Avenue that he told me, because he worked on it personally, was actually the exit, the egress from White House. That was kind of by vehicle. I thought that was, I was like, really? He's old, yeah? No, I- I installed it, I know. And I thought, well, that's kind of crazy that in the middle of this big city where I live, I lived in, I was on Constitution Avenue every day, that you could build something like that without me knowing it under the VP's house at the Naval Observatory, same thing. I think most people know that next to my brother's house on McCombe Street in DC. So also, so like, but that's, I always thought that was like preparation for nuclear war, like I didn't really think about it that much.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:37:38] Some of it, yeah, but it's, it's preparation for.

Tucker [00:37:42] So, but you think that there are facilities like that in other places outside DC?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:37:48] So if you're interested, we have a great interview. I did an interview of Richard Dolan on underground basis on the Salary Report. And it's sort of an introduction to the topic and it's based on a lot of the research of a guy named Richard Souter, who is very hard to interview. So Richard kind of went through all the material. And, you know, clearly it's... I don't know if you ever saw, Washington Post did a project, it was in 2010 or 12. Called Top Secret America, and one of the reporters, it was a team of two reporters, one of them put together a database of all the different top secret installations that had been built in the country, including since the Patriot Act. And what you saw was just this explosion of money and building so many, both underground and above ground facilities.

Tucker [00:38:42] Just as a theological matter, I hate to say this, but I think it's true. If you're building a lot underground, you're on the wrong side. I just don't, I don't think that's a good sign.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:38:54] So I'll tell you a very funny story.

Tucker [00:38:55] I mean, right? I mean like, God, just like, let's just, the obvious first.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:39:00] That's not good. So I'll tell you a very funny story. So, after I left the Bush administration, I went on the board of Sallie Mae. And I'm on the Board of Salle Mae, and after one of the first meetings, there was a wonderful

Tucker [00:39:18] I don't, I, you've been talking about underground bases and colonizing space and you clearly seem totally sane, but I'm sure some people are like, well, she's obviously crazy. I should have set the stage at the beginning with your biography, like you're as mainstream, you're on the board of Sally Mae. Sally Mae, you're a partner of Dylan Reed. It's like, you, you you're not just like on the internet. Right. I'm sorry. I just want to say that this is like a former high-level federal official who's on the board of Sallie Mae and a partner of Dylan Reed. Okay. Just want to stay out loud.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:39:52] So, I'm on the board and there was a lovely chairman, a really lovely guy, and he comes up, he says, can I talk to you after the meeting? And I said, sure. And he pulls out this big glossy brochure for the Council on Foreign Relations, and he said, the time has come for you to join. And he said we want you to ask Nick, Nick Brady, to sponsor you. And I say to him, you know, Sam, I just don't wanna do this. I just, I really don't want to do this, And he looked shocked and he said, you don't understand, if you don't do this, you're out forever. And just at that moment, just at the moment, you know, it's these moments when things come to you. I saw in my mind, I'm very pictorial, I saw on my mind a locker in the underground base and they were taking my name off of the locker. And I thought, I thought you know if it comes to that, I'll take my chances upstairs in the way of the light.

Tucker [00:40:48] Yeah, me too

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:40:49] And I said, but it's this, it's a, you know, something it's at the deepest root, it is a spiritual and cultural question.

Tucker [00:40:55] I totally agree. Who's cowering underground, like in the dark places?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:41:01] But to me, there's nothing wrong with going into a bunker if they're bombing, okay? I don't have a problem with that, but I really didn't want to be with all of them in a concentrated space. It was like, no, I'd rather.

Tucker [00:41:16] And you know them and this is you're not guessing at this like you know a lot of these people

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:41:20] I know a lot of these people and the one thing I will have to say, if there's anything I learned from my history, the problem is not they are bad and we are good. That's not how this works. The evil and the good is threaded at every level of society, every community, every enterprise. It doesn't work like that.

Tucker [00:41:41] Well, I'm not especially good, I know that. I know for a fact, so. I think you're pretty good. Yeah, but of course you know more about yourself than anyone else does, and I know that what a flawed person I am, so I'll never declare myself on. Right. On, you know, I'll say God's on my side, I'll want to be on God's side, but it's an open question.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:42:00] Well, it's a journey, it is never over and we're not perfect and it's, you try every day to do as good as you can, you know, and it is like baseball, you get some hits some days and some days you strike out.

Tucker [00:42:14] So, but you believe that there's a whole constellation of underground bases built by the U.S. Government in the United States, like that fact alone, just the physical infrastructure of it, because normally we talk about what are they doing? It's enormously expensive. Well, it's unbelievable. And like it raises lots of practical questions. How do you ventilate them? What about food and water supply?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:42:33] Where's the energy? Are we using breakthrough energy or where's the energy come? Right. Right. Because I'm sure that we have the ability to to produce breakthrough energy at very low cost. You know, if you go back,

Tucker [00:42:47] Where you start with it.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:42:50] My Dutch partners I met because they were doing a series of conferences on breakthrough energy and they brought together breakthrough energy inventors from around the world. And you can see all the videos up on the internet and really went through the history from Tesla on of different inventors who have discovered and claimed different innovations with breakthrough energy. And I'm convinced that this energy exists and I'm also convinced If you look at a lot of the. Really fast ships, you know, flying around the planet, you know, that they, you know, they're not using classical electricity.

Tucker [00:43:31] So, so, you know, they're not running a diesel.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:43:35] Exactly.

Tucker [00:43:38] Um, yeah, so we know that these, I'm sorry, I get so caught up in the details, but we know that there are quite a number of large underground bases in the United States. We can state that as fact, right? And then the question becomes, of course, like if they're connected to the power grid, you know, if they are pulling off just a conventional natural gas, electricity generation station, you could like know that and measure it, but you think they independent energy sources. Of course they do.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:44:06] So, one of the questions I have that I think is really important is when you look at breakthrough energy, if you are running the planet, so I have this nickname for the committee at the top, Mr. Global. If you were Mr. Global, you would not want to implement breakthrough energy on a widespread basis for a variety of reasons. One of which is everybody got a hold of it and weaponized it, it could be very dangerous. Why? Um, my understanding is that Literally one small group of people could take this, you know, with no sovereign powers or you know just organized crime and use it in a way that could weaponize it and make it very dangerous. I don't, I'm not a scientist, I don t really understand.

Tucker [00:44:51] Right, but energy by definition is dangerous. You know, gasoline is dangerous, right? Electricity is dangerous of course, nuclear energy is dangerous

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:44:59] Fair point. If you're the risk manager and you're charged with managing the planet, you know, this has more disruption capability, both weaponization, economic. You know, suddenly everybody's free to do whatever they want, so they're much harder to control. So if you're Mr. Global and you have the capacity to dramatically lower the energy cost, the other danger is then population skyrockets, and you, you're concerned about that. So if you're Mr. Global and you're worried about what will happen if you bring this technology out, it's very convenient to get complete control. If you don't trust the population to be environmentally responsible or politically responsible, then complete control

Tucker [00:45:45] So I have a, we have a good mutual friend who's been bothering me for years to interview you. You've got to interview her! I'm so glad, well, just because she's, he said this is like the best informed, smartest, most reasonable, mainstream, sane person I know of you. He said this and I was like, yeah, okay. Anyway, I'm just really glad we did this interview because you're blowing my mind up and down. So how convinced are you that? Breakthrough energy, alternate forms of energy, non-publicly disclosed forms of energy are in use by the US government.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:46:22] I think there's a very high chance that they're in some kind of use in a very controlled secret way.

Tucker [00:46:30] Yeah, well there are tons of indications and you've had a number of people, like at the contractor level, like I'm a federal contractor electrician or a concrete guy or whatever, and I was working on this underground facility, there are a number people who come forward to say this and I saw, appeared to be some brand new form of energy I didn't understand, insane people too. Sean Ryan, who's a friend of mine, wonderful guy, honest man, who was a podcaster, interviewed, did an interview with this guy, It was just like a just a random blue collar guy, and I think he was a concrete guy, you know, and he got a call for a million yards of concrete or whatever and went to this underground facility, DOD facility, and saw clearly signs of some energy source that was, you know, defied the laws of known physics. So there are a bunch of people who have said stuff like that. So I don't think it's crazy.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:47:20] One of, I have two businesses. One is the Salary Report. The other is Salary Screens. I do an investment screen. And I think, you know, a lot has to shift in investment if we're going to have a real civilization and not misallocate, I think we're misallocating capital terribly anyway, but he, he for 30 years has been an investor in a breakthrough energy company.

Tucker [00:47:41] Someone you know has been.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:47:44] And it's called Brilliant Light, you can go look at their website. They swear they've

Tucker [00:47:53] And what is it?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:47:56] Don't ask me.

Tucker [00:47:58] Got to get him on and so you think this money has been taken by people who've really thought through the future and are determined to survive it

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:48:10] So I think, I call it a financial coup, I think what happened was when the budget deal busted in 1995, they gave up on the government. They just said, you know, this form of government will not work as a governance structure to manage the dollar system.

Tucker [00:48:32] They're right about that.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:48:35] You know, they just felt it was impossible. If you're a risk manager, you got to turn the aircraft carrier before you hit the iceberg. And that could be 20 years before. Do you know what I mean? And they just feel that the system wasn't working and it required to get consensus. You just had to dumb people down and buy them off and it just wasn't work. So I think they decided, okay, we're gonna re-engineer government on the just do it method. And the first thing we're going to do is we're gonna pull all the money out, we're going to put the government in a debt trap and then we'll squeeze it and shift to the control model. And it was a financial coup and it started in fiscal 1998. So it started literally October 1st, 1997. By 2015, they had 21, we had reports in their financials of 21 train of undocumented adjustments. From a cash standpoint, you know, It could be 50. It could be 50 trillion or 10 trillion. There's no way to tell unless you can get access to the bank records. And then what happened was Dr. Mark Skidmore of Michigan State University and I published a study, sort of a survey we had done, thanks to him and his students, that announced that we were up to the 21 trillion. At that point, then the next step that happened, remember the Kavanaugh hearings?

Tucker [00:49:58] Very well.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:49:59] What you don't remember is during the Kavanaugh hearings, the White House, the Senate. House, Republican and Democrat, all of them together, instituted, issued an administrative policy called Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board Statement 56. Yeah, I did miss that.

Tucker [00:50:20] I'll just say. You did miss that. I was busy watching Kavanaugh yell about his teenage drinking or whatever.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:50:25] And what that policy said is, as a matter of administrative policy, we do not have to obey the constitutional provisions related to financial budgeting and disclosure. We do not to obey the laws, and we do have to obey regulations. What we can do is appoint a secret group of people by a secret process to move money out of the financial disclosures of the United States. And 150, so it's the 24 covered agencies, plus approximately 150 governmental entities. And when you throw in the classification laws and the national security laws, it also applies to the big banks and contractors working for the U.S. Government. Now, let me explain what this means as a matter of investment. When I look at the U S large cap stock market or the U.S. Bond market, the treasury market. I have no financial disclosure that has any meaning. Everything's secret. I have not idea what it means. If I pick up the financials of a New York Fed member bank that is running the US Treasury Department's bank accounts, or if I pick the Treasury financial statements, they're meaningless. They don't mean anything.

Tucker [00:51:47] What's missing?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:51:49] You can't know. All you can know is a secret group of people can move whatever, make whatever they want go missing and you can't what it is. It's all secret. So I'm looking at half the cake, but I don't know what part of the cake is missing. So it's meaningless.

Tucker [00:52:08] You don't even know if it is half.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:52:12] It's, you know, it has reached a level of absurdity where, but the absurd thing is as a legal matter to take the position that an administrative policy agreed upon by the party can overrule the Constitution, can overruled the laws, and can over rule the regulations simply by... You know, like the, you know, you, you wave the wand and suddenly magically law doesn't matter. I mean, now you're talking and, and you also saw this in, in the financial crisis, a decision was made by Eric Holder in the department of justice to not prosecute HSBC. There's a wonderful video on the best evidence channel by John Titus about this whole thing. And basically what they said is a systemically important This is under the BIS. There's a definition under the BIS, under the Financial Stability Board of a financially systemically important institution. These institutions are free to break the law with no... They're free to the law. At most, all they have to do is kick back a piece of the profits to the Department of Justice. So it's like a formal kickback system. And what you're saying is that you're taking the sovereign immunity of the BIs and through the New York Fed extending it to the banks that are running these operations.

Tucker [00:53:41] JP Morgan and the rest Bank of America

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:53:45] So what you've done with the BIS, the IMF, the World Bank, the UN, you've created all these different organizations. And if you look at, we did like 40 in Latin America, you created an international overlay of organizations that have various forms of sovereign immunity, of course, the big one being the B.I.S. And so if they are free to break the law, I mean, if you if you looked at the crisis what you're saying is these companies can lose trillions of dollars, have it replaced by the taxpayer and keep on going.

Tucker [00:54:23] So now is the point of the conversation where I have to ask the obvious question, which is who are these people? So can you name some of the people who you believe are making these decisions whose whose decisions are effectively, as you just said, above the law have effective immunity?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:54:38] Right, so that's the question, sort of, who is Mr. Global? And my experience is the bureaucracy that sort of runs things is the central banking bureaucracy. So we've described the BIS and the central bankers. So think of the planet as a house. So you have the house, then you have financing the house. That's the mortgage. Then you have insurance, and you know if you don't have the insurance, then you're, then have the equity in the house right? And the insurance layer is very, very important to make sure that the equity is protected. So you've got the real assets, you've got the banking system, you got the insurance system, and then you've the owners. So in my experience, if you go to the BIS and you look at the systemically important institutions and the members, that's the bureaucracy that runs the debt and the transaction system, so the transactions. Because the whole thing depends on being able to swap and transact. The insurance group is very important for the reasons you just described, same as on your house. And then the question is, who are the real owners? And that's the mystery. And I've spent my whole life trying to figure out who are they real owners. And basically, from what experience I've had, if you know their name, they're not one of the important owners. Do you know what I mean? It's intergenerational pools of capital. Now, here's what's interesting. One of the most powerful pools of intergenerational capital that I've ever dealt with is the Harvard Endowment. And if you look at the squabble going on over who controls the Harvard endowment right now, it's a very interesting squabbel.

Tucker [00:56:21] Can you summarize it?

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:56:24] Well, you have the Trump administration and the Department of Justice now in a lawsuit with Harvard over who has what powers over Harvard's policies. But I think the big fight is not the, you know, an asymmetrical warfare. The fight is never what the fight's really about. The real fight is about who controls the... So Harvard Corporation. The university is only a portion of the Harvard Corporation. The Harvard Corporation runs the university and it runs the endowment, okay? And the Harvard corporation, in my experience, is one of the most important investment syndicates in the world. And because they have a tax exemption, they don't have to pay taxes. They spin off, I think the last time I looked, I don't know what it is currently, but they spin off about 4% a year for the university, Is a lot cheaper than paying taxes and it's a great investment because the university provides all sorts of intellectual and human capital to the investment syndicate. So it's very brilliant, elegant model and my theory is it was the model that was really created to sort of compete with the Vatican and the Catholics who had 2,000 years of diplomatic immunity and no taxes. Anyway, so, but it is, the Harvard Corporation is run by... A perpetuating board. So the board members, if a board member leaves, they pick a new board member. So it's a perpetuate, self-perpetuating board, and my guess is behind the scenes, if there's a fight, one of the fight is who gets on that board, because then you control a $50 billion plus endowment, and a$ 50 billion plus Endowment, which now has a 39% private equity portfolio. And these are, you know, I said on Money in Markets, which is our weekly show, I say the other week, you know if this is a monopoly board, that would be Park Place. Because it's such a flagship. In the world of investment, it's a major leader.

Tucker [00:58:29] What would happen if the Congress decided to the new tax bill to tax university endowments? Which they should do.

Catherine Austin Fitts [00:58:39] I don't know because that will happen at the same time something else is going to happen. These things are going to happen at the same time. The thing that's going to rock the universities is if you look at how much money it cost you as a father to put one child through college, you're talking about enormous bills. And if you look at the how far the universities have gotten away from providing a great Education, it's not a good investment. So when I was an investment advisor, I used to work with my clients' kids and we would literally do something. We have a learning plan on Soleri now that came out of this. I would literally make them price time and money for each course they took, by course. And I would basically make them say, look, what do you want to do in this life and what are the skills and tools you need to do it? And how are we going to go get those tools? With the least amount of your time and the least of your parents' money. How are we gonna really, and we would come up with these wild education plans where they would like, you know, This audio video course and then they would be next year in Budapest studying at the university, you know, because you want kids to learn about the world and you want them to be, you know not provincial stuck in. Yeah, you want them to be educated. Anyway, but we would come up with these very creative things. And what you discover is, in a world of YouTube University and access to extraordinary resources all around the world to get a great education, the universities in the United States have gotten unbelievably bloated and unbelievably off track.

Tucker [01:00:40] I think everyone senses that.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:00:42] And if you're a loving parent, they're a terrible investment. You love your children. You want your children to be successful. If I want my child to be a successful in the world we're going into, whether it turns into a control grid or the control grid as I believe will fail, you want them to have an outstanding education. And I will tell you bluntly, the reason the unipolar model failed is because we don't have a culture. That can field and manage.

Tucker [01:01:12] That's exactly right. We don't have the human capital to run the world.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:01:17] We don't have the human capital, but we're teaching our human capital to adopt a culture that cannot succeed. Exactly right.

Tucker [01:01:25] Right, so if you're going to run the world, you need Eaton and Sandhurst to provide an administrative class that's tough, clear thinking, has a well-defined mission, start sacrificing. You need Christianity. Well, both of those, you know, certainly Eaton was a Christian school.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:01:44] If you're going to be part of a project that is longer than a lifetime, then you have to understand that this is about, you know, at the root, this is about your immortal soul and your soul is immortal. It triggers a very different way of looking at the world and a very different way thinking. And then you have to be able to collaborate across time and space in very powerful ways. That takes trust and faith. You have to be agreement capable. And you can't run a unipolar model, let alone a successful multipolar model unless you're agreement capable, so this is Lavrov's term and this is what the Russians understood and this is why they whooped our a$$ in Ukraine. They are agreement capable and we are not.

Tucker [01:02:30] Man, there's absolutely so much. Let me just move back once again to something that you said. Policymakers, the Congress, the central banks, the White House, giving up on the American model in the mid-90s when the budget deal failed. I think you said it was 95. I vaguely remember that. This democratic system or whatever version of a democratic system we have, our system is incapable of self-perpetuating long-term. It's just too dysfunctional and that's obviously true. It's too corrupt. It's to corrupt. It's clearly true. Everyone senses that. This isn't working, we're gonna get a new system. They figured that out 30 years ago. The one kind of brick wall that is looming right in the windshield is the debt meltdown. Ray Dalio talks about it every single day. Like we have too much debt, people are gonna stop buying our debt because it's clearly a bad deal. And like what happens then? And you suggested the control grid is in part designed to manage the population during that moment.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:03:35] In part, yeah, so if you want to move people to a much lower economic footprint, let alone do it on a shocking basis, having complete control is obviously very convenient.

Tucker [01:03:46] Okay, so the bottom line is everybody's about to get a lot poorer, not everybody, but a lot of the majority is about to lot poorer.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:03:53] Depends on how they do that. If you bring out breakthrough energy, you can soften the blow. There are many things you can do to soften the flow. It doesn't have to be like Russia in 90 and 91. That's exactly what I was thinking. It doesn' have to, can they do it that way? Yes. So it comes down to who governs and do they wanna do it. You know, one of my favorite lines is from Tina Turner. She says, we can do this nice or rough. And we could do it nice, and we can do it rough. There are ways of doing the control grid nice, and we could it rough, and what are they planning? I don't know. To a certain extent, remember the way, in my experience, the way they govern is they have targets and goals, and then, you know, you sort of make it up as you go, and sometimes it works.

Tucker [01:04:38] That's very fluid. So I wonder if the AI, if the data center boom, which really is the only sort of crackling, sparkling piece of the real estate market right now, I think is building data centers, development market.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:04:50] Call them control grids.

Tucker [01:04:52] I mean, look, I'm totally opposed to it, but massive bets, economic bets on the success of AI, right? And the missing piece is energy and how do you power all that? And we're already, as you pointed out, an analysis.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:05:07] You have to bring out the breakthrough.

Tucker [01:05:09] That's what I'm saying. So like either they're going to build it on coal deposits in Wyoming, or which is going to be kind of hard because they're gonna have to say all that climate stuff we've been yelling at you about for 30 years is total bullshit. Now we're burning coal.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:05:23] I don't know if they can... Well, there was just an article in Bloomberg that Texas needs 30 new nuclear plants, and the Chinese are building enormous numbers of nuclear plants.

Tucker [01:05:31] Yeah, and there are risks in nuclear. I mean, I'm a right-winger and I've always defended nuclear, but let's be totally honest, like it's not risk-free big time.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:05:38] Well, here's the thing, how do you govern and manage nuclear plants with leadership that's not agreement capable?

Tucker [01:05:45] Completely and and also like in a country that's not turning out enough people in the heart not enough engineers right, so no either are huge problems with that and But that's like that question is being forced on policymakers like what do you do about energy? What do you about energy what? Wind and solar like we're gonna be laughing about that in five years because it's just silly. Well one of the things

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:06:07] things you can do about energy is depopulate.

Tucker [01:06:13] And I know for a fact, I'm not guessing at this, that there are people running countries around the world who've thought about, like, what does AI mean for my population? Means I've got too many people. So this is something, I know this for a factor, I'm guessing, that leaders of countries are talking about between each other. Like, I don't know that. And I'm saying they're committing genocide or whatever, but they know that they're about to be far fewer people. They're just looking at hard statistics. They are, that's exactly right.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:06:38] So there's another thing that I don't understand very well. I've just listened to people, but if you listen to Sean Parker saying, I'm going to live to 145, or there's an interview where the president's son-in-law says, you know, we're going to be the last generation to die or the first generation to live forever. So you clearly have a group of people biohacking who think they can engage in massive longevity. It makes me want to start smoking again.

Tucker [01:07:07] I'm just being honest, I don't want to be, I just want to move, I want to pivot away from that level of soul-destroying hubris, because that's what that is. I'm God. No, you're not, and you're going to find out the hard way that you're So it does make me want to.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:07:20] Right, but what I'm saying is if you truly believe you can do that and you're not going to allow the general population to do it for environmental reasons, then you would be for depopulation. Of course.

Tucker [01:07:31] That's totally true. So this is again, Farfield, do you think there's evidence that people will be living to 145?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:07:37] I have no idea.

Tucker [01:07:38] I don't either.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:07:39] I don't really care. In other words, there's a whole set of scenarios I dont care about. I'm interested in freedom and I believe that the only way we can be free is through a culture that embraces the divine and builds true wealth, enduring wealth and living wealth, not just financial wealth.

Tucker [01:08:01] What is true wealth?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:08:02] True wealth. Well, you know, because I would say you're truly, truly wealthy.

Tucker [01:08:08] I feel I am I don't have that much money, but I feel that way.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:08:12] Well, it's an integration of living equity with financial equity. And what I learned being a financial advisor is that everyone had been taught to build financial equity and they couldn't integrate it with living equity. So you'd work with somebody who's worth millions of dollars who said they couldn t afford organic food. I was like, are you crazy? You know, the number one thing that causes a diminution of family wealth is health problems and health care fraud and health care bankruptcies. It's like, you know, please take a million dollars out of your bank account and start investing in really building, you know, doing everything you and your family need to be really healthy, you know, to have perfect water to have great food, etc. The other thing I discovered was, you know everybody was trying to put their money in the national security state instead of helping their kids buy homes and integrating with you know, building the living equity. So my mother's family were Quakers, and you didn't even think about buying stock until you sent all your kids to the best Quaker schools. You know, that was like, that, was first.

Tucker [01:09:22] So you think it's a, you're dropping so much here. I'm just trying to pause, like tease out certain themes, but you think its wiser, you know, if you have children and you care about them to help them buy homes than it is to.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:09:34] Absolutely. Who's, so can I, there are two stories I'm dying to tell you. Please. Okay. During the litigation, you know, you get in the situation where- What litigation? So I litigated with the Department of Justice for 11 years, or actually it was, it was some of that was fisticuffing with the tax guys. But anyway, so, so I had the sort of enemy of the state process. I had 18 audits and investigations, 12 tracks of litigation, a smear campaign, and physical harassment.

Tucker [01:10:09] So they didn't like what you were saying?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:10:11] They didn't like the idea that I would try and stop the mortgage bubble. They really wanted to have a mortgage bubble, and we were doing things to bring disclosure to play. It's called place-based financials. I really believed that if local communities could see how all the money worked in their neighborhood, that we could change things. So for example, I would constantly when I was at the Department of Housing and Urban development, I would find neighborhoods where we were. Spending $250,000 per unit to build public housing and $50,000 would buy in rehab a defaulted, a foreclosed property in the FHA inventory. And so literally, if you could just within a four or 10 block area, you know, take that $250 thousand and spend it in the way that was most efficient in that place, you could get four or five homes for the price of one. And it was really amazing when I took those numbers, we did all sorts of due diligence. This is when I was a contractor to the woman who worked for the guy who ran the $250,000 program. And I showed it to her and I said, look, we could, New Orleans, Chicago, LA, we could get four or five homes for the price of one. And she turned bright red and she said, but how would we generate fees for our friends?

Tucker [01:11:33] Exactly. Or how would we, you know, pay off foreign countries who flood our political system with donations if we're actually spending it to build nice houses for Americans, like repair Reading, Pennsylvania, when we could be spending it in more of a disgusting Middle Eastern place.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:11:50] So, if you look at PlaySpace financial statements, there's extraordinary opportunity to just re-engineer what's already there without taking money from anybody else and making So, I really thought if you, so we created a software tool called Community Wizard that would allow everybody on the internet to just come and download the data and start looking at how the money worked in their places in a way that you could see real opportunities. Okay, so let me tell you two stories. But the litigation starts and literally you go from being very wealthy and very trusted and very prospective to being an enemy of the state. No one will talk to you, nobody will answer your phone. And suddenly all your income stops, all your incomes stops, your credit stops, you're just frozen.

Tucker [01:12:37] And by yours, you mean yours.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:12:39] Yeah. So, anyway, so you have the assets that you have. Luckily, they never turned off my bank account, so I was lucky that way. But one of the things that happened was they started, I had had a farm in New Hampshire and I sold my share to my uncle, and a wonderful and very wealthy uncle who was like the patriarch. And he bought my, and I warned him, if you buy this, they may come after you too. And he was a very stand-up guy, very fearless. And he said, you know, I'll deal with that. So sure enough, I sell him the farmland. They call him and they say, you're niece is a criminal and you shouldn't be doing this, blah, blah blah. And they said, we want the financial records from the farm. We want all the financial of the farm and he said well send me a letter so I can give it to my lawyer and I'm happy to send them to you. So they. And this is the summer farm where all the family goes. Anyway, so instead of sending him a letter, they show up at his house in Portsmouth, New Hampshire at 9 p.m. At night, three FBI guys and a HUD IG guy with a subpoena. And it was designed to scare him. So the family had a big powwow, should they drop me because they don't want to be targeted. And, um, and he said, well, you know, she always helped us. So it turned out, I counted it up. At that point, I had lent or given to family and friends $250,000. Just, I made a lot of money, I loved making money, and people needed help, and that's what money's for, so.

Tucker [01:14:24] That is what, to restate, that is what money is.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:14:26] Right, so I just always don't, I hadn't even thought about it.

Tucker [01:14:30] By the way, your average 23-year-old NBA player who's floating all of his cousins and single mom, he understands that better than your average rich person. Your obligation is to your family, including with money.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:14:43] Some of us are lucky, some not. Right. So, he said, she helped everyone, so I'm going to help her. And it took 11 years, but at the very, no, it was 2006, so that was about nine years. At the end of the process, when I won the litigation, we got money coming in, I sat down to either repay everybody who loaned me or gifted me money. And almost everybody, some had just gifted. And I counted it up and what I realized is I had come into the litigation having loaned a quarter of a million, and then over the next nine years, exactly a quarter of a billion had come back. It wasn't tit for tat. I mean, it was different people, different things. Some had gotten said, well, I guess she needs it back and repaid it or some had gifted it because they knew I'd gift it. And literally I put a quarter of a million out and a quarter of a main came back and Tucker, if it wasn't for that money, I wouldn't be here. I would never have made it through. And it was because it was in the people bank and they couldn't shut the people back off. You know, they could do all sorts of things to shut off all sorts of resources and income, but if it's in the people bank and the people you love and trust, you know, it comes back. So when- I love that. Yeah, it's great. So when I finished the litigation, I had had a 401k that I'd had to bust. It had $500,000 in it. I paid $225,000 and fines and taxes to get it out. Well, I don't think they thought, they put my 401k under audit so I couldn't use it to finance the business. It was dirty tricks. Anyway, so I take the money out. So my accountant, when we get the settlement money, she said, let's fund up the 401k. I said, no, I'm never going into business with the U.S. Government again. I don't want any of those vehicles. I'm out. And I said but the other thing is I'm taking that $500,000 and I'm bonusing it out on the People Bank. And I'm going to start a new business and I think that business will be successful. So I don't t need that$ 500,000, it'd be nice, but I don t need it. But I need to get that money back to the People bank because that is the only bank in this world I trust.

Tucker [01:17:08] That's like, a beautiful story.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:17:10] Well, here's the question, and I used to always say this with my clients, who's going to be there for you? Who's going to be for you, that's the people bank, and you want to invest in the people Now it may not be money, it may be time, it maybe help, it might be, there's a wonderful book called Family Wealth by a guy named James Hughes, I don't know if you've ever No. And basically what he does, my great uncle didn't like the book so much. He said, you're trying to turn our family into a corporation. I said, no, I'm not. But it basically teaches a family how to conspire together. Basically have a dinner once a month or once whatever and talk about what's in your heart to do. This person wants to do this, this person wants do do this. Some things make money, some things don't. But help each other be successful at whatever your passion is. And work as a family, you know, I always, at Soleri, we say, don't worry about if there is a conspiracy, if you're not in one, you need to start one. And a great family should be a conspiracy where you're trying to help each other succeed.

Tucker [01:18:18] I love that. Yeah. I mean, these are ancient and with respect, very obvious points. Exactly. But I don't think I've heard someone say them in a long time.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:18:30] Well, but if we're going to build a successful culture, that culture has to be good at building wealth, living wealth and financial wealth, both on an integrated basis. So if you come to Soleri, we have a curriculum called Building Wealth, and it has six pillars, and we organize all of our content into and around building wealth because it's part of what you have to build to build a culture that can really be part of real solutions. So, the first pillar is free and inspired life. And so, you know, our theory is you have a goal, you have relationship with the creator and you decide. You know, what's your free and inspire life? Everybody's unique. And in a decentralized world, everybody is unique. You know there's no formula, so to speak. The second one is navigation tools and that's where people get burnt. So we say in navigation tools. There's an official reality, and then there's reality, and you need to know both. And reality is for the management of your time and money, and the official reality is for the cocktail party, and you need to not get those, don't use the official reality to manage your time and money because then you're going to get, I mean, I clean so many people up from financial fraud and health care fraud because they believe the official reality, so you can't do that. The third is risk management, because in this kind of dangerous environment, and everything's about. Keeping your risk down. And that's more important than making money. It's more to lower risk than make money. So in a well-governed world, we'd all be focused on outside.

Tucker [01:20:13] But now we're just

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:20:14] We've got to be focused on.

Tucker [01:20:16] Preventing loss.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:20:18] And then the fourth is living equity, and that's all living things. That's people, that's family, that culture, that's education, all the things that go into that. And then financial equity, all of the things you know. And then, the last one is, to me, the most important. It's called turtle fourth. So, did you get the hat? The turtle fourth hat? I did, yeah. Okay, turtle fourth is about never quitting. You must never, ever quit. And the whole goal of the people who are trying to centralize is to get you to think it's hopeless. And John Rappaport used to always say, hopelessness is an op and it's planet wide.

Tucker [01:21:03] Well, because I am, I am actually struck by, well, by everything that you've said. Um, I think this could be like a nine hour conversation if we let it, but. I have one more story. But I am struck also by your tone. I don't think I've ever heard someone describe dark deeds with more cheerfulness. Like how do you, how do not go crazy?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:21:24] So you have to keep a state of amusement. One of the most breakthrough moments for me in the last 20 years was when I realized that it was okay to be happy no matter what was going on. Sometimes you can't be, it's so horrible what's going on, but I'll tell you exactly what had happened. I had a wonderful church where I studied spiritual warfare for two and a half years at the beginning of the litigation, and it was that training. That saved my life. But I was at a sermon and there was a co-pastor who had very long fingernails and she was very angry and she shaking her hands with her long fingernail and you know sometimes when you're in a big church and they point right at you and she said, she said the devil can have my house and the devil can my car, but the devil cannot have my joy. And it was like I exploded in my head and I said.

Tucker [01:22:24] That is it.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:22:24] That is it.

Tucker [01:22:26] So it's a conscious decision not to allow that joy to be stolen from you.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:22:30] Right. And sometimes it's hard. Did you ever see the never ending story, the movie, the never-ending story, read the So it's a wonderful child's story where the child is the protagonist and he's fighting a force in the universe called the nothing. And the nothing is running around the universe sucking meaning out of everything. And it's harder when you're dealing. And if you look at this digital control. It comes with an energy that's very demonic and sucking meaning out of everything. And they're very good. They're masterful at turning allies against each other. The divide and conquer thing is really heartbreaking. It's happening right now.

Tucker [01:23:10] On the right, I see it, yeah.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:23:12] And, um, so you're up against the nothing. And so sometimes we'll come together in a team meeting and somebody will say, I've lost my state of amuse. And then the team's job is to help them to get it.

Tucker [01:23:27] That's my state of abuse.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:23:28] I've lost my state of amusement and it happens. I can't.

Tucker [01:23:34] But it is, I think of myself where I've had my amusement taken from me a number of times, but I always think to myself, if you're perennially shocked by evil in the world, you're a child, you're an idiot. What did you think this was? Don't be naive. There's a lot of evil in this world, there always has been. Don't be shocked by it. Laugh in its face.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:23:56] You're always going to be shocked by it. Oh, I am. You're going to always be shocked, I'll tell you why you're going be shocked. If you understand, if you understand love. You can't fathom why anyone would reject that and embrace evil because it's so stupid. It's so wasteful. It's so unnecessary, as my mother used to say. It's, you just can't fathom why anybody would do it. I, you know, I watch the folks who are in the financial system, who are deeply corrupt and just constantly take and take and take, you they're the plunder team. And I think, how is that? To me, what they're doing is not fun. I love,

Tucker [01:24:56] It's not fun.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:24:57] It's not fun. So I will tell you, my gift, everybody has a gift. My gift was an investment bank. I was absolutely fantastic. I was just really, really good at it. And the heartbreak for me was when I got, had to leave the establishment, I lost the ability. You know, it's like a painter and you lose your ability to paint. You can't get access to colors anymore. But I loved it. And when you do it in the right way, two plus two equals 20. And it's so exciting, it's the best feeling in the world. It's like, uh,

Tucker [01:25:30] I've lived it. Yeah

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:25:31] Yeah, so when Van Gogh, it's my theory, when Van Goh finished a painting that's what he pow, it was like, wow, you know, it is great. And you watch these guys do the fraud and destroy, you now, all the mortgage fraud and it destroys neighborhoods and it destroyed family and it is just, it just, is like a lose, lose, and you think, that is no fun.

Tucker [01:25:56] No, and they're not happy. I know a number of them, and I had a conversation with Ray Dalio, who I do like, I don't agree with him on everything, but I do, like Ray Dalcio, and he's got more perspective on life. He had lost a child, I think he was forced to kind of think through what matters. And I asked him off camera recently, like, do you know, I know all kind of miserable billionaires. I know, a couple of happy billionaires, but how many happy billionaries do you? And he's like, I know of few, like I'm actually pretty happy, but not that many.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:26:25] And that's a tell. That's a Tell. And I will tell you, the debt is a symptom. It's not the problem. What's a symptom? The debt. The debt, the country's debt. The debt is the simple. When there was 21 trillion missing as of 2015, when we published that study in 2017, there was 20 trillion of debt. Now, first of all, remember the treasury can just issue currency. They don't need debt to create the currency. In fact, I would say historically, the greatest currencies are fiat currencies that are not debt based. So our problem is the debt basing. But let's just grossly oversimplify and talk about what that means with the 21 trillion. So the treasury sells treasury bonds to our pension funds, moves 21 trillion into the bank accounts at the New York Fed member banks for the treasury, they're the depository. And then the 21 trillion disappears out of the back door. So it's just a straw that's sucking our pension fund money into, I call it the breakaway civilization. And meantime, we as taxpayers are now obligated to pay the debt into that we owe our pension funds and the money is gone.

Tucker [01:27:46] Why do you call it the breakaway civilization?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:27:48] Breakaway civilization was a term made famous by Richard Dolan, and it simply described a decision to create a parallel system. First it started with the black budget, but it grew, call it the national security state, but to build a civilization that literally was separate and not subject to the laws of the existing ones. So if I'm running a company and I want to bring up new systems, I'll. Bring up the new systems while I'm running the old and I'll run them in parallel and I'll move things over slowly and then at some point I bring the current thing down. And to me, that's what the financial coup was. You're moving the money out of one system and putting it in another. So in theory, 21 trillion is enough at a 5% interest rate to basically finance a private government, if you will, right? I'm not saying that's what happened, but in theory.

Tucker [01:28:47] Do you think it did?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:28:49] So when I was at HUD in 1989, it was late 89 or early 90, I was in a meeting with the secretary and we had brought all the regional administrators in for a meeting with the secretary. And he was very upset because the regional administrator from California had implemented something in response to a court decision. There was a court case in the Court of Appeals. And they decided, okay, you got to go to the right. And so he had implemented that. And the secretary was having literally like a manic episode, screaming a huge temper tantrum, screaming at him. And finally this guy said, but Mr. Secretary, it's the law. And he just exploded with fury and he said, the law, the law? I don't have to obey the law I report to a higher moral authority. And just at that moment, it was like, remember the scene in Eyes Wide Shut when you first walk in on the secret society doing their occult ritual? You had this image of, oh, he literally, he doesn't have to obey the laws of the United States. He's operating under a different governance structure.

Tucker [01:30:09] People feel that way.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:30:10] Right. And that, you know, there are many. There's a very famous story of Lincoln when he's talking about what he wants to do to implement the Reconstruction Policies. And he tells a story about a young child saying, you know, if I throw the fish back, Dad will get mad at me. But if it slips from my hand accidentally and you grab it, then Dad won't be mad And the implication of the story is that Lincoln has a dad that he can't buck. And we're back to the question, who's dad? It's the same question as who's Mr. Globe.

Tucker [01:30:55] And you've never gotten closer to the answer or you've never settled on an answer.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:31:02] I – here's my guess. So we did – I once did a two-hour interview on The Salary Report on Who is Mr. Global where we go through all the different theories. So I think literally you have intergenerational pools of capital which meet and work by consensus. You know, it's a committee system and they do have a set of rules. And what I don't understand, I think their challenge is they're risk managers and They're constantly pulling out a lot of money, and they always need to get that dividend. The question is, why do they need the dividend? Where's the money going? Because they're constantly running the financial system to extract extra money. There's always disappearing money, the question is why and where is it going?

Tucker [01:31:50] And you think it's going to infrastructure projects.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:31:53] I think it's going to infrastructure projects. I think its going to big investments like building the control grid is a big one. One of my questions on the financial coup is, are they literally setting up an endowment so they can run the world on a global governance that's a dictatorship with an endowment? So, it's a bigger endowment than anybody else's.

Tucker [01:32:19] You said a couple minutes ago that the debt, the US government's debt, which I think even people are not interested in this stuff, are aware that it's there and that it is a problem, is not the problem, it's a symptom. What did you mean?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:32:35] We, if you look at our current model. It is not being run on an economic basis and it's getting much worse and it is getting worse steadily. So let me give you an example. Our military budget this year is approximately $850 billion and the President wants to take it or the Secretary of Defense is saying we've got to take it to a trillion. HHS budget is $1.8 trillion. Dr. Skidmore just did an analysis. If we went back to 2010 levels of disability, we would lower that by half a trillion dollars. Half a trillion? Half a trillion. So America is, I call it the great poisoning. We've poisoned ourselves and it's blowing the budget. And it's not just blowing the budget of the federal government. If you look at family budgets, it's flowing their budgets. Poison people are not productive and their healthcare costs can be very expensive. And you see that at the federal level and you see that at state level, local level and the family level. That's gotta be dealt with. But, you know, if you look at the budget right now, its expenses are skyrocketing and it's skyrocketed because the fundamental model of what we do and how we do it, it helps to centralize but it's not economic. And so you gotta change that.

Tucker [01:34:01] What we do and how we do it, do you mean how we live?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:34:05] Right, so now I get to tell you my last story. Okay, this is called The Red Button Story. And if you put my name in on the internet, you'll get a copy of this story because it happened to me in 2000. I was asked by a healthcare practitioner to give a presentation called How the Money Works on Organized Crime. And it later became a very famous article called Narco Dollars for Beginners. And it was meant to be a light, funny description of the intersection. Of organized crime flows with Washington and Wall Street. So my book, I have an online book called Dylan Reed and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits that is a case study that teaches people, it's designed to be like a business school's case study, that shows you that intersection between illegal cash flows and Wall Street and Washington. Anyway, so I'm in the middle of the speech and I'm describing... The congressional testimony on the dark alliance allegations that happened in 1998. And at the time I was helping a reporter do research and she was covering the hearings and a spokesperson for the Department of Justice told her, so I'm in the middle of the speech and there are about 100 people and the conference that where I'm speaking is a conference that happens once a year by this group. And the focus is on how we evolve our society spiritually. So this is a very spiritually committed group of people who want to evolve our society spiritually, okay. So I'm describing the fact that a spokesperson for the Department of Justice told this reporter I was helping that the U.S. Economy launders 500 billion to a trillion dollars a year of all illegal money. So that's narcotics trafficking, that's financial fraud, that you know, everything, it's human trafficking, and, um... And the number is now much, much bigger, but they were describing the fact that the US economy and financial system is the leader globally in laundering dirty money. So I said to this wonderful group of spiritually evolved people, what would happen if we stopped being the global leader in money laundering? And we had a little conversation. They said, well, you know, the money would leave the New York Stock Exchange and go Singapore, Zurich, or London. Um, and, and we'd have, we might have trouble financing the government deficit because we, you know, now we borrow over half of the money currently. Um, And, and so we, we, You know, our taxes might go up or our government checks might stop. So I said, okay, let's pretend there's a big red button up here on the lectern, and if you push that button, um, you can stop all hard, hard narcotics trafficking in your town, your county, your state tomorrow. Thus offending the people who control 500 billion to a trillion dollars a year of all dirty money in the accumulated capital they're on. Who here will push the button? And out of 100 people dedicated to evolving our society spiritually, guess how many would push the buttons? I don't know. One. The other 99 would not push the but. Wouldn't keep all those kids from dying? Yeah, it would. So wait. So I said to them... Why would you not push the button? So we had a little conversation. They said, we don't want our taxes to go up. We don't wanna government checks to stop. And we don't want our 401ks and IRAs to go down. So if I had voted, there would have been two pushing the red button. So what I discovered that day, the problem was that not that they wouldn't push the red button, but they wouldn t go into the invention room and have an honest conversation about what the real problem was and how I call it, how we turn the red-button green, how we make money pushing the button, because then we can push the button. Button, and you have to push the red button because you cannot become wealthy. Liquidating your children. You cannot become wealthy by poisoning your children and your people. And yet that's what we've been doing in America for decades now. And now here's the political problem. If you're the new president of the United States and you walk into the Oval Office. Political guy is going to say to you, Mr. President, the American people just spent billions getting you voted in as president, and now they want payback, they want their government contract, they want there privatization, they the coal increase on social security, they wanted a community block development grant, and you're going to turn to your secretary of treasury and he says, well, you better be nice to the people who control $500 billion or a trillion dollars and the accumulated capital they're on. And of course, the number is much bigger now. Now, how are you going to press the red button? You can't. And if you look at the history of politics in America, the history is everybody wants their check and they want the story of I am good. I'm a good Christian. I am not doing any of this corrupt organized crime stuff. You know, I'm just voting, you know, so I say it this way, when Goldwater, the end of World War II, George Kenan said we got 6% of the people and 50% of resources and we're going to have to be tough if we keep this going. So Goldwater ran for president, he said, we're going to have to drop a lot of bombs. And the American people said, oh no, we don't want to do that. We're good Christians. So Jimmy Carter came along and he shivered in front of the fireplace and Americans said, oh no. We don't wanna do that, we didn't want cut back. And so the Bush's came along, and said, you know something, you all are good Christians, here's your check. Don't ask questions. And that's where we've been. Everybody wants the story of I am good. And the problem you can You can push the red button, you can turn it green, but it has to be done one neighborhood at a time. You need to take all the money into place and instead of spending the government money to centralize control and on the control grid, you need to re-engineer it to build real wealth. And you've got to decentralize the economic power. If you centralize and you create lots of billionaires, you're gonna shrink the pie and that's what we've been doing, and we've been making money from poisoning each other.

Tucker [01:40:34] If people want to learn more about your research and your views on things, if they wanna know about the 11 years you spent fighting the feds for blowing a whistle on them, where do they get that information?

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:40:48] So, we published the Soleri report, it's soleri.com, S-O-L-A-R-I dot com, and we have a subscription service and we a lot of free, you know, so if you want to get to know us, you can come in and you can learn tremendous amounts from the free stuff. We'd love to have you as a subscriber, and, um, we have great group of subscribers. We have, what happened to me was, I fell into this because I had terrible, terrible experiences with the corporate media. And so I just started doing shows and giving out my email and saying, if you have a question, ask me. And over many years, the questions would come in and we'd publish the answers and, you know, it'd go on and on and went on for free for a long time. And then finally I got so many questions that I would just, you now, I finally said I need to hire people. But we have this global network of subscribers and audience who get on the site, share comments, they're brilliant. And We help each other figure things out, and we've literally become an intelligence network. And it's all people who want to be free, and they all understand one can't be free unless we're all free. This is an all or nothing thing. They either get the control grid or we're free, and the only way we're gonna be free is if everybody's free. It's an all-or-nothing deal. And there are a lot of people now who understand this and are gathering. And so I have many subscribers I don't I just know from what they say I have many subscribers who are your subscribers because they feel and I feel you're on the same journey.

Tucker [01:42:23] Yeah, I'm just not a very systematic thinker, so my instincts tell me that you're telling the truth, and of course I agree completely with your orientation. My brain doesn't work that way. So it's been a true pleasure to hear all of this.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:42:38] Well, thank you. I love your work, so I've been a subscriber from the very beginning.

Tucker [01:42:48] Thank you very much.

Catherine Austin Fitts [01:42:50] Thank you.